Podcast 28: Paleo is the worst?

Roger Colin 300x200 Podcast 28: Paleo is the worst?
What happens when you merge the worlds of doctor and personal trainer?
What do you find at the crossroads of medicine, theory and practice?

The Relentless Roger and the Caveman Doctor (RRCD) Podcast:  Simplifying complex issues for healthy living


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The podcast exists to take our daily efforts in the physical world and distill usable information for you, the listener.

In Episode #28 Roger and Dr. Champ Discuss:

29 Responses to “Podcast 28: Paleo is the worst?”
  1. Sharon says:

    Loved the podcast, as usual, guys! I could totally relate to Colin as I have duked it out with so many doctors in the last ten years. You can just see “that look” on their face. They really want to throw you out of their office if you challenge them. Frankly, I think that look is really fear..fear of losing their license if they should agree with you.
    That being said, I wonder if you have read the research on Dr. Dayspring and Dr. Attia on cholestrol.
    It kind of scares me. My last NMR Profile showed that my LDL P was 1628, the LDL C was 158. Particle size was 21.4 which isn’t bad, but they are saying particle number is what is most significant.
    They claim that the high particle number is dangerous. I eat a pretty high fat diet and some are starting to question how that is raising our LDL particles. They all say to get your LDL P number down, but how are we to do that? One says keep low carbing, the others say that low carb can hurt some people’s LDL numbers. YIKES!!
    Are you concerned? I’m wondering if I should start dropping the amounts of red meat, animal fats, cheese, etc.

    • cavemandoctor says:


      This is a good point. I actually asked for NMR test and the doc said “hmmm, I have never ordered that for anyone”, i.e. I have never even heard of it… It seems like particle number is where the money is from what I hear. I think this is going to be very individualized and require some self-experimentation, because we really don’t now what affects what. Just something else for us to worry about…

      Have a good holiday!

      • Sharon says:

        Happy Holidays to you guys too!
        I told my sister to have her doc order an NMR and the doc said “You don’t need it..it’s just a waste of your money”. Ok, first of all..if you order it through LabCorp, they don’t charge you. I have Blue Cross and it is covered if you draw blood at LabCorp. I think her doctor is just another ignoramus who wouldn’t even know how to read the results so she just side steps it.

        Dr. Dayspring is a lipidologist, so I guess this is his “baby” and I guess he knows his stuff.
        Peter Attia also has something about the dangerous LDL P numbers on his blog. I have no clue how to lower this LDL P because I don’t want to go off my low carb/high fat diet.
        I’m thinking that if low thyroid is causing LDL P to rise then I need to experiment with fixing that.
        There are herbs that I’m willing to try as a first step rather than suck down porcine hormone and potassium iodide. WellnessResources.com has a Iosol product that does not harm the thyroid. I’m willing to give that a shot along with the Thyroid Helper product.

        I’ve had high LDL P for a few years now and it’s scaring me to know that I could just drop from a heart attack. Geesh! It can all make you crazy. I say let’s all go to a tropical island, party on and eat pizza and donuts…LOL!

      • jake3_14 says:

        Why do you need some other doctor to order the NMR lab test? You’re and MD, so can’t you order it yourself?

        • cavemandoctor says:

          You can’t even check your own labs in in the hospital anymore.

          • jake3_14 says:

            I guess that there’s been enough abuse of the system to warrant those restrictions from an insurer’s viewpoint. Maybe you could get your MD-Crossfit buddy you mentioned in the podcast to write the Rx for the test. If not, the test isn’t that expensive to pay for on your own.

      • jake3_14 says:

        So, when is the book you guys wrote going to come out?

  2. kem says:

    Colin, you need to visit my GP. I wanted to talk to him about my arrythmia. He had a look at my lipid panel lately and said something like “Your HDL is high (2.1), your triglycerides are low (0.6), nothing to worry about here. That’s a great HDL/total ratio.” He totally disregarded the “high” total (6.3) and LDL (3.9) warnings on the print out.

    No talk of statins. The prescription: cut back on the caffine and keep up the bicycle riding. Seems to have worked.

  3. Lelia Leary says:

    Your show has been a gem. I’ve listened to every episode. I’ve made many small tweaks to my diet and exercise regime and I’m appreciatve of your hard work. I wish you guys lived near Boston so I could pick your brains in person.
    Keep up the great work!

  4. Katalin says:

    Congratulations on being in the top 10, Colin!
    Your patient getting you a huge box of chocolate is super funny!
    Your encounter with your doctor is shocking, but not surprising. Have you heard of the book Pharmageddon by David Healy? I’m sure you have.
    Thanks for the podcast!
    P.S. Are you still testing your compression gear?

  5. jake3_14 says:

    Reality check: At about 17:10 into the podcast, Roger recommends to take charge of your own health and get multiple medical opinions, presumably in the hopes of getting one from a low-carb friendly doctor. If you combine Jimmy Moore’s list of low-carb friendly health practitioners listed in the U.S. with those from Rob Wolff’s Paleo Physicians Networks, you get these stats:

    – # of low-carb-friendly/paleo-friendly primary-care physicians (MDs, NDs, DOs): 173
    – # of states with no low-carb-friendly/paleo-friendly primary-care physicians: 9
    – # of Americans/(low-carb-friendly/paleo-friendly primary-care physician): 1.82 million
    – # of low-carb-friendly/paleo-friendly primary-care physicians in the Greater Philadelphia area: 1

    So, how many Americans are going to be able to get that informed second opinion? We paleophiles are still a small voice of sanity in the insane fabric of the American medical community.

  6. jake3_14 says:

    Your and Roger’s agreement that eating well requires no supplementation contains some unspoken assumptions that are worth examining:

    – Paleo/low-carb eaters either don’t need or have a reliable reference source of macro- and micro-nutrition requirements
    – Food containing the complete array of macro- and micro-nutrition requirements is available and affordable to everyone following a Paleo/low-carb food plan
    – The entire population can make good use of the nutrients in good food.
    – Everyone can/should make the time to prepare good food most of the time.

    Assuming that anyone doesn’t need a reliable reference source of macro- and micro-nutrition requirements is demonstrably false. Our educational system has a minimal component about nutrition. Most people simply don’t know what nutrients they need, except through their exposure to advertising, doctors, or clinical dieticians — all sources of inaccurate information. Moreover, our environment is far more toxic and stressful that our Paleolithic ancestors. The EPA has identified eight known carcinogens so widespread in the U.S. that they are not removable. In addition, the widespread use of plastics has poisoned the environment with uncountable xenoestrogenic compounds. In addition, Americans are under far more stress than we were 100 years ago, not to mention 200,000 years ago. A major way to compensate for these toxins and stressors is through either food or supplementation.

    Assuming that the American public has a reliable reference source of macro- and micro-nutrition requirements is also demonstrably false. There have been many critiques of the methodology used to establish of the US RDAs for everything. Further, it’s unclear (and unlikely) that Paleo/low-carb eaters have the same nutritional requirements as those people eating the Standard American Diet. For example, when you eliminate a lot of sugar from your diet, your calcium requirement decreases by about 25%. We simply don’t have a validated set of nutritional standards in this country. To recommend that we can get all of the nutrition we need from food without knowing what nutrition we need is short-sighted.

    Next, assuming that every Paleo/low-carb eater has access to the high-quality, nutrient-dense foods is false. There are many people of modest means who follow a Paleo/low-carb food plan as best they can but can’t afford pasture-raised meats or organic versions of the foods on the Environmental Working Group’s “Dirty Dozen” (now 15) list. In addition, those living outside of major metropolitan areas routinely have access to lower-quality produce and a more limited variety than those near major cities.

    The assumption that the entire population can make good use of the nutrients in good food is false. Your body’s ability to function well on its own with just eating and exercise declines as you age, e.g., reduced production of stomach acid (meaning trouble utilizing animal protein), increasing lactose intolerance (meaning trouble with getting enough calcium).

    Moreover, it takes an enormous amount of time to make all the food required to eat a nutrient-dense Paleo/low-carb diet. Some people, e.g., those with families, or working multiple jobs, can’t or won’t set aside the time necessary to do all this cooking.

    Some of your peers in the vanguard of Paleo eating — Chris Kresser and Paul Jaminet, to name just two — recommend some regular supplementation, as does Jack Challem, a veteran of reporting on supplementation studies. Please reconsider your stance on this issue.

  7. Jake -

    Fantastic post. The reality is that every sound byte has multiple layers to it and warrants further analysis on your own.

    Allow me to clarify my own supplement stance.

    I feel as though everyone should first attempt to eat a diet that is stand-alone (i.e. not in need of supplementation). Yes, this requires an investment of effort, time and, likely, money (although cost effectiveness is up for debate). Furthermore, I believe that everyone should re-analyze the effort, time, and money they are willing to devote to nutrition and, if possible, increase it by 10+%.

    My issue with supplementation is that not enough people give the above an honest go. Too often, supplements become the primary go-to instead of what they should be (think about what the word “supplement” means). Too often, supplements are chosen willy-nilly, based on something that was read on first pass and may or may not apply. Too often, serving sizes are chosen willy-nilly, based on… nothing.

    So, I’m not at all against supplements IF one has initially made the effort, IF one is responding to his or her own requirements, and IF their usage is respected. The middle point speaks to many of the things you brought up – stomach acid, lactose intolerance, etc.

    Kresser and Jaminet do good work, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the Wolf/Kresser supplement line comes up with.

    That’s my stance, and I’m sticking to it.

    • jake3_14 says:

      I respect your stance, Roger, and I have a lot of compassion for those who increase their efforts at being healthy but fall short of the ideal, and then decide to supplement. I’m one of those, but I fit your criteria for making the effort to eat healthy as a first measure.

    • cavemandoctor says:

      Roger, you took the words right out of my mouth, though perhaps more eloquently presented…

      I agree 100%


  8. John Dixon says:


    I heard your comments about throwing away those big stalks on traditional large broccoli and wanted you let you know you may have been throwing away the best part. Yes the outer part of the stalk is hard an fibrous, but if you peel that away with a knife or peeler, the meat of the stalk is crunchy and delicious. This is actually my favorite part. Give it a try.

  9. Ryan says:

    Dr. Champ and Roger,

    First of all, great podcast! I stumbled upon your site when searching for “paleo in medical school” on google. As a pre-med student following the paleo lifestyle, I am constantly trying to find connections to practicing doctors who implement these principles with their patients. Dr. Champ provided some great advice to me over email.

    I just wanted to comment on the podcast in general – there are a lot of paleo-oriented podcasts out there, but what makes this one unique is both your format (discussion and questions intermixed, I like the “cave man corner” and “practical takeaways”) and how both of your professions complement each other. Having a doctor and a trainer discuss this topic satisfies those approaching paleo academically, and also yields highly understandable, realistic and practical advice.

    You are both doing the community a huge favor sharing your advice for free like this. It is inspiring to a student like me and useful to so many.


    • cavemandoctor says:

      Thanks so much for the nice comments. I’m glad you like the podcast, and hopefully we can continue to provide useful info.
      Thanks again!

    • cavemandoctor says:

      Thanks so much for the nice message. Good luck in medical school!

  10. Jack says:

    Hey Guys! just caught up to all the podcasts! Love all of them! Thanks so much for education us and making me laugh so much! Looking forward to your next podcast.

    Thanks again
    ps – let’s hope for less pee in the pool and no satins in my water.

    • cavemandoctor says:

      Thanks Jack!
      Glad you like the podcast and lets definitely keep statins out of the water…
      Take care!

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